The War on Terror
For my grandparents' generation, the question you could be sure everyone knew the answer to was "Where were you when the War ended?" For my parents' generation, it was "Where were you when you heard Kennedy was shot?"
For ours, it will forever be "Where were you when the Towers fell?"
I know where I was, as, I suspect, do you. I was in the art room at the screenprinting place where I worked. I didn't see them fall; it would be days, believe it or not, before I saw the famous footage of the planes crashing into the buildings (I didn't have a TV at the time). I heard it on the radio-heard the exact moment when the first tower collapsed straight from Peter Jennings. Up until that moment I honestly thought there was no way a plane could have destroyed one of the Trade Towers, but back then I didn't know just how hot jet fuel burns.
For months afterwards, I had a small American flag on my car like so many of you. I was all about finding those responsible and making them pay through the ass. We knew who they were, and we knew where they were. I endorsed bombing the Christ out of them until they were dead, every last one of them. For a while, that's what we did.
Then we fucked it all up.
Today, four coordinated explosions targeted London's Transit System. While they certainly didn't cause as much damage or loss of life as the 9/11 attacks, they did enough. At first, people didn't know who was responsible, and the IRA was suspected. They were quickly ruled out as likely suspects, however, once the British government thought about it for a bit: the IRA, despite their heinous history of attacks on British civilians, are too smart to blow themselves up along with their targets. Suicide bombers they aren't. No...that particular trait is characteristic of some folks who should be familiar to us by now...they blew up 2 of our embassies in Africa. They toppled the Twin Towers and aimed a plane at the Pentagon and, lest we forget the other Americans on the plane bound for Chicago, crashed that plane into a field in Pennsylvania. They have publicly claimed responsibility for all these acts and also were responsible for Metro bombings in Madrid, Spain. You know who I'm talking about: Al-Quaeda.
Didn't we try to eradicate these dickheads back in 2002? Isn't their leader a 6'6" tall conspicuous-looking fellow who needs DIALYSIS for Christ's sake just to stay alive? Isn't his face the most hated face in America? Doesn't everyone know who he is? WHY HAVEN'T WE CAUGHT THIS FUCKER YET? Because we STOPPED LOOKING, that's why!!!
Christ, I'm pissed.
Outlined below is my plan to fight the War on Terror. Believe it or not, it doesn't include bombing "those people" back to the Stone Age. At least not at first. See, I'm one of the more enlightened folks who tries to think things through and who tries to limit his stereotyping to a minimum. In other words, not all Arabs are terrorists, much like not all Asians are geniuses, not all Blacks are gangstas, not all White Americans are George W. Bush.
First step: recognize, America, that the War on Terror and the War in Iraq are not the same fucking thing, despite what our President tries to make you believe in pointless, vague speeches made from military bases. We went to war in Iraq, according to our President, because of a "clear link" between Al-Quaeda and Saddam Hussein, and because of suspected Weapons of Mass Destruction in Iraq, and because Iraq posed a "clear threat" to the security of our Nation, and because, lest we forget, Saddam tried to kill our President's Dad (our current President's words, not mine). Well, there was no link. (There probably is NOW, but that's another story. See below.) There were no WMDs. And Iraq has never attacked the USA. And now, we're neck deep in that shit over there, and it's all our fault.
What we should have done was continue hunting Bin Laden and flush out every last Al-Quaeda motherfucker in the world, not drop the ball mid-game and start a war somewhere else for shady, monetary motives, hoping to capitalize on John Q. Public's gullibility and general idiocy to win support for our actions. But that's what we did, folks. And what was the result? Now everyone with a hair across their ass about the USA (and that's a LOT of people), have a concrete motivating force to join a terror network, and Iraq is that force. We had the support of most of the world when we went after the assholes who attacked us. When we went after a country with NO credible links to our enemies in order to satisfy a grudge (and get our hands on summa dat black liquid gold) we lost what support we had.
That's where we are. Wanna know how we should fix it?
First: apologize. (Never happen, I know...but perhaps the end of this administration may signal a change in foreign policy. I hope so.)
Second: Stop rubbing our big American cock in the world's butter dish and expecting everyone to be cool with it. Get the hell out of Iraq as soon as possible and make sure they have a fighting chance to defend themselves against the clusterfuck we caused there.
Third: work on repairing our relationships with the rest of the world. In fact, this should be number one, as we should be doing it NOW.
Because the only way we are going to truly win a war on "terror", which is an ideology and not a nation, is to make "terror" UNACCEPTABLE. We need to band together...the entire WORLD needs to band together as one, but we can start with the EU and us (I'm sure the conversations at the G8 summit have turned to other things besides the Kyoto accords since Tony Blair returned). And here's how we do that: Any Terrorist attack ANYWHERE is treated as an attack on EVERYONE. None of this "I'm France and I don't want to get involved" shit. Then, spare no expense in tracking the fuckers down. Make an AntiTerrorism League of nations with some fucking balls, meaning no country in the League gives them shit or red tape-the main focus should be eradicating terrorism. And here's how you enforce it: Any country that harbors a terrorist, and we can prove they are doing so, goes on a list. Until they turn that terrorist over, NO NATION in the ATL trades with that country. Yes, I know it will hit the pocketbook, but I firmly believe there is nothing in the world that cannot be found in more than one place. Buy your oil someplace else...and lets not kid ourselves here-the biggest threat trade-wise is oil. But we produce oil. Russia and China have tons of oil, and every nation has stockpiles of it. We may have to conserve, but after a while those oil-producing nations would have to sell oil to each other in order to make a buck, and supply and demand rules, folks. Example: I am oil producing country A. You are oil producing country B. We are crying in our beer because no one in the world will buy our oil because we insist on harboring terrorists. Guess we'll have to sell to each other...but wait, why would I want to buy something I already have in spades? Maybe we should turn that terrorist over after all.
It's crucial to get the rest of the world on board with this idea, and that's tough given our dick-waving foreign policies. If we don't, it'll just be seen as more big-sticking by the USA and they'll sell their goods elsewhere and the only one taking the hit will be us. But if we succeed in this, sooner or later there won't be many places left for these terrorist assholes to run to. And when they're all in one place...
That's when we drop the fucking hammer and the ATL gets nasty. Now it's not give them up or we won't trade. Now it's give them up or we'll come get them. ALL of us, as in every nation in the ATL. It's not a war with just the US, it's a war with the world. Can you handle that shit, bitch?
A final word to the people of London: Bravo. I've never been a fan of The British Government, I suppose it's the Irish in me. But when I heard the reports that people in London were more annoyed than panicked at the attacks on the transit system, I say again: Bravo. I suppose being shelled continuously during WWII has made Londoners of stern stuff. You have my respect and my sympathies for this latest cowardly bullshit. It feels like it happened here.
For ours, it will forever be "Where were you when the Towers fell?"
I know where I was, as, I suspect, do you. I was in the art room at the screenprinting place where I worked. I didn't see them fall; it would be days, believe it or not, before I saw the famous footage of the planes crashing into the buildings (I didn't have a TV at the time). I heard it on the radio-heard the exact moment when the first tower collapsed straight from Peter Jennings. Up until that moment I honestly thought there was no way a plane could have destroyed one of the Trade Towers, but back then I didn't know just how hot jet fuel burns.
For months afterwards, I had a small American flag on my car like so many of you. I was all about finding those responsible and making them pay through the ass. We knew who they were, and we knew where they were. I endorsed bombing the Christ out of them until they were dead, every last one of them. For a while, that's what we did.
Then we fucked it all up.
Today, four coordinated explosions targeted London's Transit System. While they certainly didn't cause as much damage or loss of life as the 9/11 attacks, they did enough. At first, people didn't know who was responsible, and the IRA was suspected. They were quickly ruled out as likely suspects, however, once the British government thought about it for a bit: the IRA, despite their heinous history of attacks on British civilians, are too smart to blow themselves up along with their targets. Suicide bombers they aren't. No...that particular trait is characteristic of some folks who should be familiar to us by now...they blew up 2 of our embassies in Africa. They toppled the Twin Towers and aimed a plane at the Pentagon and, lest we forget the other Americans on the plane bound for Chicago, crashed that plane into a field in Pennsylvania. They have publicly claimed responsibility for all these acts and also were responsible for Metro bombings in Madrid, Spain. You know who I'm talking about: Al-Quaeda.
Didn't we try to eradicate these dickheads back in 2002? Isn't their leader a 6'6" tall conspicuous-looking fellow who needs DIALYSIS for Christ's sake just to stay alive? Isn't his face the most hated face in America? Doesn't everyone know who he is? WHY HAVEN'T WE CAUGHT THIS FUCKER YET? Because we STOPPED LOOKING, that's why!!!
Christ, I'm pissed.
Outlined below is my plan to fight the War on Terror. Believe it or not, it doesn't include bombing "those people" back to the Stone Age. At least not at first. See, I'm one of the more enlightened folks who tries to think things through and who tries to limit his stereotyping to a minimum. In other words, not all Arabs are terrorists, much like not all Asians are geniuses, not all Blacks are gangstas, not all White Americans are George W. Bush.
First step: recognize, America, that the War on Terror and the War in Iraq are not the same fucking thing, despite what our President tries to make you believe in pointless, vague speeches made from military bases. We went to war in Iraq, according to our President, because of a "clear link" between Al-Quaeda and Saddam Hussein, and because of suspected Weapons of Mass Destruction in Iraq, and because Iraq posed a "clear threat" to the security of our Nation, and because, lest we forget, Saddam tried to kill our President's Dad (our current President's words, not mine). Well, there was no link. (There probably is NOW, but that's another story. See below.) There were no WMDs. And Iraq has never attacked the USA. And now, we're neck deep in that shit over there, and it's all our fault.
What we should have done was continue hunting Bin Laden and flush out every last Al-Quaeda motherfucker in the world, not drop the ball mid-game and start a war somewhere else for shady, monetary motives, hoping to capitalize on John Q. Public's gullibility and general idiocy to win support for our actions. But that's what we did, folks. And what was the result? Now everyone with a hair across their ass about the USA (and that's a LOT of people), have a concrete motivating force to join a terror network, and Iraq is that force. We had the support of most of the world when we went after the assholes who attacked us. When we went after a country with NO credible links to our enemies in order to satisfy a grudge (and get our hands on summa dat black liquid gold) we lost what support we had.
That's where we are. Wanna know how we should fix it?
First: apologize. (Never happen, I know...but perhaps the end of this administration may signal a change in foreign policy. I hope so.)
Second: Stop rubbing our big American cock in the world's butter dish and expecting everyone to be cool with it. Get the hell out of Iraq as soon as possible and make sure they have a fighting chance to defend themselves against the clusterfuck we caused there.
Third: work on repairing our relationships with the rest of the world. In fact, this should be number one, as we should be doing it NOW.
Because the only way we are going to truly win a war on "terror", which is an ideology and not a nation, is to make "terror" UNACCEPTABLE. We need to band together...the entire WORLD needs to band together as one, but we can start with the EU and us (I'm sure the conversations at the G8 summit have turned to other things besides the Kyoto accords since Tony Blair returned). And here's how we do that: Any Terrorist attack ANYWHERE is treated as an attack on EVERYONE. None of this "I'm France and I don't want to get involved" shit. Then, spare no expense in tracking the fuckers down. Make an AntiTerrorism League of nations with some fucking balls, meaning no country in the League gives them shit or red tape-the main focus should be eradicating terrorism. And here's how you enforce it: Any country that harbors a terrorist, and we can prove they are doing so, goes on a list. Until they turn that terrorist over, NO NATION in the ATL trades with that country. Yes, I know it will hit the pocketbook, but I firmly believe there is nothing in the world that cannot be found in more than one place. Buy your oil someplace else...and lets not kid ourselves here-the biggest threat trade-wise is oil. But we produce oil. Russia and China have tons of oil, and every nation has stockpiles of it. We may have to conserve, but after a while those oil-producing nations would have to sell oil to each other in order to make a buck, and supply and demand rules, folks. Example: I am oil producing country A. You are oil producing country B. We are crying in our beer because no one in the world will buy our oil because we insist on harboring terrorists. Guess we'll have to sell to each other...but wait, why would I want to buy something I already have in spades? Maybe we should turn that terrorist over after all.
It's crucial to get the rest of the world on board with this idea, and that's tough given our dick-waving foreign policies. If we don't, it'll just be seen as more big-sticking by the USA and they'll sell their goods elsewhere and the only one taking the hit will be us. But if we succeed in this, sooner or later there won't be many places left for these terrorist assholes to run to. And when they're all in one place...
That's when we drop the fucking hammer and the ATL gets nasty. Now it's not give them up or we won't trade. Now it's give them up or we'll come get them. ALL of us, as in every nation in the ATL. It's not a war with just the US, it's a war with the world. Can you handle that shit, bitch?
A final word to the people of London: Bravo. I've never been a fan of The British Government, I suppose it's the Irish in me. But when I heard the reports that people in London were more annoyed than panicked at the attacks on the transit system, I say again: Bravo. I suppose being shelled continuously during WWII has made Londoners of stern stuff. You have my respect and my sympathies for this latest cowardly bullshit. It feels like it happened here.
posted by The Angry Piper at 9:00 PM
24 Comments:
Bravo. I salute you and am a kindred spirit.
No, on with dispensing the criticism. Iraq was a terrorist state. Sadam committed genocide on the kurds. He openely threatened chemical attacks on Israel and the US. Was he joking?
Those of us who believe the war in Iraq is about oil or revenge are deluding ourselves. You mean to tell me that a Democratic congress (at the start of the war) ratified this because they were duped into it by Bush? The Idiot King? Come on.
There is always more to it than meets the eye. Remember, Bush started a very unpopular war BEFORE he was elected to a second term, AND WAS STILL ELECTED!!!
One of my best friends was in Iraq last year and had shells flying over head. He is a HAZMAT?Nuclear expert. He regrets signing up for the duty, but tells me that you'd have to be there to understand what those people endured.
Clinton bombed the shit out of Yugoslavia (or whatever it is now) and no one batted an eye because it was good, God fearing white europeans we were fighting and bombing for. Remember when we bombed the hospital by mistake? Of course not. Liberals have short term memories. Bush = Bad.
Wake up. Iraq would have been the next hotbed for terrorists. You said it yourself, zero tolerance for nations who harbor terrorists. They did and still do.
We haven't gone after North Korea because they DO NOT harbor or support terrorism. They condemn it, in fact.
Is the Iraq war an unbearable quagmire of shit? Yes. Could it have been handled with a few well placed bulets? Yes.
America declared its intentions openly and with due notice. Iraq did not cooperate. Given the circumstances, dick waving was a very appealing alternative.
Will 9/11/2001 happen again? Most likely. Will Iraq have any part except in a fundamentalist tirade used as an excuse to kill the innocent. No. I, for one, am glad.
Sorry Piper. You and I share common views with dissimilar methodology. We cannot risk letting rogue states threaten us in this age. It sucks, but there we are. Who's next? Iran, probably, or Pakistan (Bin Laden loving pricks that they are).
If we fought that war for oil, why are gas prices so high? No, Bush does not run the oil companies of the US anymore.
I still love you.
Murk
1. The War on Terror is unwinnable just like the war on drugs, you see, large governments have a very hard time catching individuals even if they coordinate together. See the IRA, the PLO, Whitey Bulger. The fact is, is the governement were after you or I, and we left the country, they would have little real luck in finding us.
2. If the US is to go after "terror states" why is not Saudi Arabia first on the list?
3. I do agree that the US needs desperately to repair it relationships with the rest of the world. This would help in Iraq. Look bak to the end of WWII, it took 50 years and multiple countries to get the Axis countries back together.
4. Islam, needs to bring Islam into the 21st century, right now much of the muslim world and religion are operating under dark ages ideals.
5. Bush was "elected". Well see in 20 years. Now I am not saying all presidential elections were on the straight and narrow, but these tow BY FAR were very suspicious.
6. Yugoslavia: You forgot the support the US had through out the world for this, and as Angry Piper so elequently put it, we were not "waving our cock in their butter dish". I think a huge mistake by this goverment was to allow free and clear media access to this war.
7. The Bush Administration really fugged up by ostracizing Colin Powell. The only man respected by the rest of the world. Would not surprise me to see him run from president as a DEMOCRAT.
This is an interesting debate, I hope it continues.
(A bit of a rant, but that’s what the internet is for)
To the proponents of the Iraq War;
Iraq was not training terrorists, it had no weapons of mass destruction its fearsome army was made up the of the same goofballs who we cant get to shoot straight and stay on their posts when we try and train them to police their own streets.
Iraq was contained. Yeah it was a rouge state but it was a neutered one, we had bombed it into the stone age literally, they had no control over their own air space or even the top third of their own country (the Kurds were quit autonomous).
If you wanted to send thousands of US troops to another country, to fight the terrorist camps, and to rebuild the infrastructure so that they could become an example of a secular and democratic state in the Middle East, then I have a great place for you to send our brave soldiers: Afghanistan, The fact is Bush pulled out of Afghanistan the first chance he got, before he even got close to finishing the job because HE wanted to go to Iraq. We left Afghanistan in the hands of the same warlords who were in power before the Taliban took over, these are not good people, and if you think otherwise you need to read the history of the region. These warlords are violent, corrupt and massively funded by the largest bumper crop of poppy plants to date (remember that other war we fucked up, the war on drugs? Almost ALL the world’s heroin comes form Afghanistan now). And it was their lawlessness that made the Afghanistan people accept the stability offered by the Taliban’s in the first place. Kabul is the only part of the country that is “safe”. The rest is the same shape it was before because we have all of a couple of thousand feet on the ground there, so we can’t make it safer.
Yeah, Saddam was a son of a bitch. But guess what, he isn’t alone, and there are dozens of other very bad men torturing their own people as we speak and some of them are our allies, yet we don’t do jack shit about them because they aren’t in a part of the world that generates revenue for certain interests. And our actions have already resulted in more Iraqi civilian deaths than the last ten years under the brutality of Saddam, their country will dissolve into civil war the second we pull out, and will further destabilize the region. And we have provided the best recruiting incentive for jihadis that AQ and the other networks could ever hope for.
After the 9/11 attacks we had everyone on our side, even our former enemies felt sympathy. Our entire past actions of fucking over other people were forgiven in that one instant. And what did we do to utilize that get out of jail free card? We went crazy and started acting like a drunken wifebeater at a woman’s shelter. We are now hated by just about every country on earth, more than any time in our history, even the British public thinks we are a bunch of wankers for electing that pinhead Bush for a second term.
My brother got sent over to Iraq, and could have been toasted by a roadside bomb. Had you tried telling me that his entire life, everything he ever was, everything he would ever be was ended for some ephemeral political stunt, I would have to put you in the hospital. We have sent kids, 19 year old kids, to another country that they didn’t have to be in to die for vague jingoistic reasons. They are a volunteer armed force. They volunteered to defend this country, NOT to be used as fodder in an unprovoked war.
Our borders into this country are more open than ever, Bush hasn’t put any money into homeland security, all the money is being spent on Iraq. Our seaports are completely open, with no security to speak of, let alone out land borders. The latest assessment of our airport security has shown that the airports are no better at detecting dangerous items, and they use this ridiculous notion of a “no fly list”, as if a terrorist is going to use his real name, or a name that is known, when he gets a plane ticket in the first place.
All the money, all the personnel, all the effort that could be going into actually making our country safer are thousands of miles away where they are doing us no good whatsoever. And before you say that we must be safer because we haven’t suffered another attack, you could have made the same statement right before the first World Trade Center attack, the Oklahoma city bombing and 9/11. All of those attacks occurred years apart with no indication to you are anyone else that they were in the works, and yet you assumed that our government was doing it’s job to protect you, and when we looked back after 9/11 we found out they hadn’t done jack shit.
But hey, whatever. Saddam was a bad man, glad we caught the guy who, as John Stewart said “was the man who had absolutely nothing to do with 9/11”.
Bravo. I feel safer already.
Okay. Nevermind.
Iraq and their black market money from the French and Russians was not a threat. Bush was never elected fairly. The moon landing was fake. Milosovich was much more of a loose cannon than Saddam. Somalia never happened and the Wite House masterminded the 9/11 attacks. I admit it all.
No one supports this war for the same reason that no one supported Korea, Viet Nam and Somalia. Because the people that live there are not white, they have funny names, eat weird food and don't worship Jesus. They're not worth fighting and dying for. That's reserved for those who are Christian, aglo-saxon meat eaters.
Are you kidding? Clinton would have done the same thing and painted it as a humanitarian aid package and you would have all been shouting Bravo, while the Republicans would have been screaming "bring the boys back home!"
Turning terrorism and war into a political smear campaign is selfish.
Note to Owen: This in no way applies to the statements about your brother. He's very brave and you're very right to be concerned and angry.
Like I said. Nevermind.
“Turning terrorism and war into a political smear campaign is selfish.”
Selfish? Maybe Unamerican? Maybe Unpatriotic?
It’s not a smear campaign. It’s holding those in power responsible for their policy decisions. It’s questioning the motives of those who put the lives of their fellow Americans in jeopardy for cynical political or vague ideological reasons, especially when they weren’t willing to pony up when it was their turn. Especially when they have financial connections to the companies that benefit from the war.
They wanted the job so badly, they get to take the heat for when shit hits fan on their watch, that’s part of the job. And they wanted this war like a 6 years old girl wants a pony for Christmas and now it’s a cluster fuck and they are pissing about how everyone is unhappy with the way things are going. It’s so unfair that they are being held accountable for screwing up royally.
They want to keep drawing the correlation between the war on terror and the war in Iraq, they want the two intertwined in the minds of the electorate. Every time Bush addresses the American people he tells us about how everything he is doing is for the protections of the Free World and our Way of Life. When he (and Blair) campaigned, they said how they would protect their electorate.
Well, we have 1,744 dead soldiers and ten times that many who are maimed and crippled for life, and yet the terrorists can still blow up busses in London. Maybe because those terrorists aren’t in Iraq, they are in London. Just like the next attack in the US will be in the US, and not in Iraq.
And I fail to see a connection between people who are calloused about the lives of non-white Christians and those who are actively opposed to dropping bombs on them. Generally it’s the other way around. People were opposed to the Vietnam war and the Iraq war because they were and are clusterfuck operations. And they were and are run by idiots with no grasp of reality, and no willingness to admit that they screwed up. They want everyone to believe things will get better if you just give them more time and send more teenagers to get shot at. And of course if you object to seeing them get sent over, you aren’t “supporting the troops”. Well, I’ve spoken to and read enough accounts of the troops who came back from over there and they think it’s a fucked up situation. But the civilian flag wavers over here are just hoorah-ing all the stronger, though oddly enough, they aren’t signing up to go fight the good fight themselves.
I can't nevermind. But I apologize for the intensity.
p.s. And I hated Clinton too.
So, what's your answer? Where's the solution?
And which Democrats are responsible? It can't be all Republicans. Congress is split down the middle, if I remember correctly for the past elections.
I don't mind hearing people give the current administration heat, but I'm sick of the typical "Bush is soooo stupid! He's fighting a war for oil!"
I've talked to many returning from Iraq as well. It is a clusterfuck. WWII was a clusterfuck. Did Germany ever attack us on American soil? No, but they had plans to do it. Did they have the capability? No. But we bombed Dresden ten times worse than anyplace in Iraq or Afghanistan. Do I feel safer? Dunno, wasn't born then.
All wars are clusterfucks because people die in random and insane ways for values that are printed on papers and for leaders that have agendas that are not free from personal interests.
I feel safer with Saddam captured and his sons dead.
Murk, old bean, without trying to make you feel like we're all ganging up on you, I feel I need to address some of the points in your first post, as it was in response to mine.
First, if your definition of liberal means one who opposes the policies of this administration, I am definitely a liberal. However, I am NOT a Democrat. In fact, in 2000, I voted for McCain in the primaries because I believed (and still believe) he was the only candidate who knew shit from shinola. He continues to impress me to this day with his practical, no-nonsense attitude, and despite the fact that I may disagree with some of his beliefs, I think he's the best man for the job.
That being said, I voted Democrat in the last two elections (after McCain was no longer a candidate) because I work in the social services, and the Republican Party is not a friend to guys like me who make their living in my field. Plus, I wasn't impressed by the Republican candidate, and my opinion has not improved after 5 years.
Secondly, I never said removing Saddam was a bad thing-he was a bad guy. I said stopping our search for Osama Bin Laden was idiotic, and the timing sucked ass, and we still haven't caught the bastard, and his buddies are still blowing shit up, and every reason Bush gave for going into Iraq turned out to be a LIE, or at the very least wrong.
Thirdly, Bush was elected to a second term, but not without some controversy, and it was a close one-due mostly I think to the ineptitude of the Democrats. Not as much controversy as the first time around, where the State HIS BROTHER governs was the sticky wicket, but even if you voted for the guy, the amount of questionable shit that went on in that election should bother you as an American.
Fourth, I DO remember when we bombed the hospital in Yugoslavia, so this Liberal doesn't have a short term memory problem. I also know that there are an assload of civilian deaths in Iraq EVERY DAY that we don't hear about regularly. It's a tragedy that we're up to almost 2000 American lives and countless more wounded, but I know the numbers of Iraqi civilians killed is staggering at this point, and I know we're responsible for a good deal of them. I DO agree with you, however, that we're a lot quicker to respond to injustices against white european folks than anyone of another color: just look at the GENOCIDE going on in Darfour. Or what happened in Rwanda. Or what happens in Africa, in general, every day. Why don't we respond to those, and why did we intervene in Iraq? Last time I checked, your typical Joe Iraqui on the street is a bit darker skinned than your typical white european...
Hint: It Rhymes with "Toil" and shares three of it's letters.
Bush may not run the oil companies anymore, but his buddies still do. Just like Cheney's buddies run the company responsible for building Iraq up again after we destroy it.
I am aware that all politicians, regardless of party, have personal interests in things and tailor their policies to them. Vietnam is a prime example of this. But I offered an answer in my original post. It may be a bit far-fetched, because no country, especially us, will willingly take an economic hit to eradicate terrorism, and that's what we'd all have to do based on my suggestion. Money truly makes the world go round, and no one wants to lose what they have. If you doubt this, take a look at the fact that all the G8 nations are accepting the Kyoto protocols on global warming EXCEPT the USA, because it would impact our economy too much. In other words, Bravo, Europe for taking the steps to reduce global warming....but we're not gonna stand with you because we'll make less money if we don't wreck the Earth as much. We're selfish fucks, and that's one reason why our relationship with the rest of the world is so abysmally bad that I can't see any on-the-fencers standing with us.
I'm not just saying Bush = bad (in my opinion, and yours, if I read you right, that doesn't really need to be said). You wanted a solution and I gave one that I really think would work if it were somehow possible to effect. But it's not possible, and it won't be possible, for as long as we continue to be the bully on the block and keep pissing in the world's breakfast.
In retrospect I was a little more heated than I needed to be.
Having said that. Murk, I'm glad you feel safer with Saddam and his sons out of the picture.
Unfortunately, as a Bostonian, which was the starting off point for the 9/11 attacks, is one of the biggest ports of entry into the US and is one of the most likely targets of future attacks, I feel no safer. In fact, I feel less safe now that I know the terrorist have had such an effective recruiter for their cause in the Whitehouse for the last few years. And everyone else I know in Boston feels the same way, as do all the NY city people I know. Of course most of us from both cities didn’t vote for Bush, so I’m sure he doesn’t care how safe any of us feel.
And my solution, were I consulted a few years ago, would have been containment rather than all out attack. Iraq wasn’t a threat. You can say they were as much as you want but we know now that they were pussies. Saddam had nothing, no terrorists, no WMD no weather control machine, nothing. He was a limp dick. Instead, I would have had us actually finish the job in Afghanistan. Then spend the effort on a viable peace in Israel, which means leaning harder on Israel than we have for the last few years, and working to better the lives of people in the middle east rather than dropping bombs on them or propping up oppressive regimes just because they happen to be friendly to our government.
But now, I don’t have a solution for Iraq, anymore than I have a solution for slavery in 1850 Mississippi. It’s too late for solutions. And if I did, no one that matters would listen to me since I don’t have a Republican party membership card in my wallet. And since I am not with them, I am obviously with the terrorists, or worse, I’m with the libruls.
Africa is a very interesting hotbed, which the US could give two shits about. Some of the stuff going on there makes Iraq and Saddam look like a traffic jam of Martha's Vineyard. You have to wonder why no one cares . . . I could obviously go into the lack of natural resources, the fact it is a mostly black population, but between HIV/AIDS, intense genocidal civil wars, and terrorism, should the US have some interest?
Owen, I said "safer", not safe. No one feels safe. And if you think Bush is that evil that he is letting Boston out in the wind because "we didn't vote for him", that's very cynical. Possibly not incorrect, but cynical. He's an ass, but more of a dumbass than a jackass.
Piper, I was a McCain Republican before I realized that the 2 party system does not work. Again, we CAN'T sell Iraq's oil. OPEC would not allow it. They run bartertown. The SAUDIs wouldn't allow it. They'd invade first. Plus Iraq is not that oil rich compared to its neighbors. Kuwait on the other hand...
So, what have we come to agree on?
1. Bush is dumb.
2. Bashing him serves no purpose.
3. None of us feels safe.
4. Neither Party is offering a solution.
Piper has put forth his solution, let's have another.
My cynicism for Bush pretty much goes as follows, he thinks God talks to him, literally, he thinks he is Gods instrument on this earth, literally. He has said that much verbatim on many occasions. If he had his way, he would rewrite our constitution into a totalitarian Christian state, with government sponsored reeducation camps for gays, atheists and feminists. I think he is not only a bad person, but he is also an incompetent and ignorant and horribly arrogant man that makes him the worst president of the last 100 years of US history. Nixon, Reagan, Bush Sr., Bill Clinton, ALL had some redeeming qualities, whether it be ideological, organization skill, diplomatic savvy or just raw leadership ability, they each had at least one thing that even those who hated them would have to say “yeah, he had that going for him, at least.” G.W. Bush has nothing.
You won’t get a disagreement from me that the two party system sucks. Though I no longer hold the illusion that I once did, that there was no tangible difference between the Republicans and Democrats. Bush and his cronies and the fake conservatives who gained a majority in the congress pretty well slapped that out of my mind right quick.
The Republican party drifted so far to the Right that the Democrats, on their worse day, are the closest thing I can stomach voting for. Which sucks, but not as much as the fact that 51% of those who bothered to vote still think they were voting for the Republican party, when in fact they are voting for something very different that just took the name, and threw out everything else.
A solution for Iraq? On further reflection I guess there is one I can think of, already touched on. We reengage the international community, admit we fucked up, and beg them to help us stabilize and rebuild with a fully international force. And in return, we give them equal control and say in how the region is handled from now on.
Basically the solution comes back to not rubbing our collective cock in the world’s butter dish anymore, as Keith said. The US has to stop being a complete total asshole to the rest of the world. We have to start playing by the rules, and be a member of the international community and not the bully.
And yeah it would be a good idea to reduce our dependency on oil, just a teensy weensy bit. Maybe, I don’t know, engage in some responsible management of our resources, like not giving tax breaks to people who buy SUV’s. Investing in a useable mass transit infrastructure. Putting real money into development of fusion or even just “modern” fission nuclear power.
And stop putting oil barons into political office.
That is one of the things that really concerns me about Dubya. He has so much and said that he has a mandate from God, to be doing the things he is doing. And not that the remainder of the government is totally in line with that, but Christian morality prevades much of the government today, and that is just scary.
Not that I don't believe you two, but I'd like to see the "mandate from God" quote for myself. No, seriously, I would.
I watch about 2 hours of CNN a day and read everything on their website (and how am I still not brainwashed?) and I've never seen or heard this quote.
Now, I know a lot of people who talk to God and he talks back. It's called praying. I realize that one of you thinks all Christians are blind puppets with no brains and dead souls (Malach), and I sense Mr. Owen has little regard for Bible thumpers and the like, and Piper hates everyone. I'm against religious extremists myself. And I don't like when any government is run by religion, BUT...
What's the harm in using a little Christian inspiration and morality as guidance? NOT as policy, but guidance? Hell, my wife's Grandmother is a saint and talks to God every day and says he talks back. I don't think she's a religious extremist. No, she's not the President, I know, but come on. The guy likes God. Big deal.
This country was founded on freedom, especially freedom of religion, not absence of it. There's a big difference between seperation of church and state and seperation of state and faith. Let the man say God every once in a while. It's not like he's burning you with holy water.
I love the "secret right wing Christian agenda to detroy homosexuals, socialists and REAL CITIZENS!" Yeah, Bush is just rounding people up and putting them in camps, isn't he?
COME ON GUYS! I agree he's a bad president, I agree! But let's keep the ball on the field here. He's NOT Jim Jones or Hitler with a Bible. I'll even grant you the unjust war crap if you'll admit that comparing him unfavorably to Stalin is way too much.
I've never seen personal hatred for a public figure bring people so far away from the real issues.
Oh, and this might be better as a discussion on the forums. Perhaps Malach could make a heading and post the link here?
Do it! Lazy bum.
Example, the place I work has an abstinence program. It is FEDERAL FUNDED. It is not funded through any church, but Bush admin specific programs. In this program you can only address abstinence, or you lose you funding. I will find the Bush quote, give a few hours.
The following quotes took me all of five minutes to find. Either way, i'm burned out on this discussion. I’ve had the same debate with people one hundred times before and frankly it isn’t worth the effort anymore. I'm dropping it.
"I feel like God wants me to run for President. I can't explain it, but I sense my country is going to need me. Something is going to happen... I know it won't be easy on me or my family, but God wants me to do it."
--George W. Bush commenting to Texas evangelist James Robinson in the run-up to his presidential campaign
"We share common goals and a common faith."
--George W. Bush, addressing the Christian Coalition's "Road To Victory" convention
"God told me to strike at al Qaeda and I struck them, and then he instructed me to strike at Saddam [Hussein], which I did, and now I am determined to solve the problem in the Middle East. If you help me I will act, and if not, the elections will come and I will have to focus on them."
--Palestinian Authority Prime Minister Abu Mazen quoting Bush when they met in Aqaba; reported in The Haaretz Reporter by Arnon Regular
"I don't think that witchcraft is a religion. I wish the military would rethink this decision." - to ABC NEWS, June 1999, regarding Ft. Hood's decision to allow Wiccan rituals
"I do not think witchcraft is a religion, and I do not think it is in any way appropriate for the U.S. military to promote it." - October 15, 2000
"I urge all Texans to answer the call to serve those in need. By volunteering their time, energy or resources to helping others, adults and youngsters follow Christ's message of love and service in thought and deed."
Therefore, I, George W. Bush, Governor of Texas, do hereby proclaim June 10, 2000, Jesus Day in Texas and urge the appropriate recognition whereof,
In official recognition whereof,
I hereby affix my signature this
17th day of April, 2000.
"Jesus Day 2000" Proclamation
“I trust God speaks through me. Without that, I couldn´t do my job.” -Bush meets with Amish group during July campaign stop
Malach.
You work for a CATHOLIC organization. They get the FEDERAL funding, but they (the Church) dictate the agenda program.
And don't even ask why the Government is giving the church money for an abstinence program. They give money to lots of faith based prorams and have for the past century.
Owen,
Sorry. I was enjoying the discussion. Apparently, you weren't. Again, I apologize. I meant no offense and no harm.
No offense taken, it’s just not a topic I have any energy for right now.
I have been involved in this kind of discussion so many times that anything I say is basically reinventing the wheel, and that just isn’t very rewarding any longer. For similar reasons I wont get into debates about evolution vs. creationism. It's all been said before, saying it one more time isnt going to change a thing.
cheers.
Evolution vs. Creationism?
Why argue about that? Everyone knows God made Adam and Eve and a snake and a big fruit tree in the Garden of Eden and watched hilarity ensue. Anyone who doesn't believe that is going to hell (which is where the snake lives nowadays).
I disagree on a variety of points; if you are interested in knowing more about the subject matter, check out my blog. I post a fair amount on terrorism, and have a lot of links to other resources. And I also have an article I've written on Saddam's terror network you might want to read (its on my website right now, I'm revising it and will post it to my blog soon). Regards,
Kirk H. Sowell
Window on the Arab World
That is, if you want the information as presented by a darling of neoconservatives and supporters of current US foreign policy. He will certainly present plenty of information to you, just be aware of the source, and the direction of its bias.
Dr. Murk agrees. Always consider the source. Especially when being told to consider the source.
Wait... did I just fart on myself?
*meditates in midair*
Where is the Angry Veteran? I KNOW he'd wanna chime in on this issue...
AV...WHY HAVE YOU FORSAKEN ME?????
He's at home... WASHING HIS TIGHTS!!!!
All,
I'm sorry I missed the meat of this conversation. I can only blame my cross country move and settling into my new job and home. But now I'm back and ready to reach out to my core audience of maybe up to a half dozen people.
I'll just point out that the evidence seems to show that the impetus for the war was not oil, but idealogy. The neoconservatives, intellectually facilitated by Paul Wolfowitz, believed in a "pro-active" foreign policy. (See a 1991 paper written by Wolfowitz, rejectd by George H.W. Bush). Not pro-active by means of diplomacy or multilateral agreements. Pro-active by means of force for the greater good. It's actually very Wilsonian in it's origins. Wilson believed in the "white man's burden" of going out and changing the world for the better by use of force. The other school of thought, embodied in the Kennedy administration, was the "City on the Hill." America should change the world by being a shining example.
It looks like the current administration has failed at both options. Force has been used in a half hearted manner, bringing more chaos and pain then good. And we have lost most of our moral allure in the international community.
AV
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